Bess Kargman has made a name for herself by crafting films that speak to the resilience and artistry found in unexpected places. Known for her documentaries focusing on sports and dance, her latest project brings a different kind of story to the forefront: the story of legendary songwriter Diane Warren. I recently had the opportunity to speak with Bess about her latest documentary, her experience working with Diane, and what she learned throughout the filmmaking process.

Bess Kargman admitted that Diane Warren wasn’t someone she knew extensively before embarking on the documentary. However, her intrigue grew after a quick search revealed the depth of Warren’s contributions to the music world. “I had sung ‘Rhythm of the Night’ a cappella in college, and I wanted to meet her,” Kargman shared. “She has this signature look with her scarf and just comes across as a badass.” Once they met, Kargman realized Warren was the kind of character that could carry a feature-length documentary.

However, building the trust needed to bring Warren’s story to life was not straightforward. “She’s very funny, very flippant, and definitely not an open book. Earning her trust took years,” Kargman said. Filming began during the pandemic, and the process stretched out over three years, partly due to COVID-19 but also to give Warren the time to open up.

Diane Warren is known for her fiercely independent spirit and relentless work ethic. For Kargman, it wasn’t just about portraying Warren’s professional achievements but about uncovering the moments that shaped her. “The order in which I do interviews is very deliberate,” Kargman explained. She never dives into deeply personal questions right away. When Warren finally opened up about her past, it was in the final interview after years of trust-building.

One of the key aspects of Warren’s story that shaped the documentary was her relationship with her mother. Warren often jokes about her mother’s lack of support, saying things like, “My mom said I’d end up sitting on the corner with a guitar and a cup.” But Kargman was quick to recognize the deeper pain beneath these flippant remarks. “It’s actually very painful to not have the person who gave birth to you support you in any way,” she noted.

Kargman’s approach to documentary filmmaking is organic—she doesn’t come in with a script or preconceived notions. Instead, themes evolve as the interviews progress. With Warren, the contrast between her grit and her vulnerabilities became the heart of the story. “She underplays how much she’s overcome, but to me, it’s a big deal. That’s what makes her so interesting,” Kargman said.

The documentary captures several deeply emotional moments in Warren’s life, from her multiple Oscar losses to the death of her beloved cat. “We got kind of lucky in terms of timing with the events that unfolded,” Kargman admitted. The death of Warren’s cat was one of the most significant moments. “It was almost as painful as losing her father. Even her friends said that,” she explained.

When Warren’s cat died, Kargman hadn’t yet earned enough trust to film that intimate moment. Instead, Warren allowed a couple of close friends to capture footage. “The next day, she let me in with my own camera—no crew,” Kargman recalled. “She said she had cried all her tears and had none left. It was the equivalent of losing a major loved one.” Moments like these offered a rare glimpse into Warren’s vulnerability, showcasing the juxtaposition of her public persona with her private pain.

The film also follows Warren through her experience with three Academy Award nominations, none of which resulted in a win. Kargman captured Warren’s disappointment, adding layers to the portrayal of an artist who, despite her immense success, still longs for recognition from her peers. “She has this invincible exterior, but she’s incredibly sensitive, almost like she still hasn’t ‘made it’ in her mind,” Kargman noted.

Throughout the documentary, Kargman interviewed numerous artists and industry insiders who worked with Warren over the years. One interview that stood out was with Cher. “She was so humble and funny,” Kargman said. “There’s a saying that the topmost famous people are often the most chill, and Cher was definitely that.” In one memorable moment, Kargman had the idea to record a spontaneous phone call between Cher and Warren. “It was totally unscripted and impromptu, but it ended up being one of the most genuine moments in the film.”

Cher’s down-to-earth personality added a new dimension to the narrative, as did insights from other collaborators. Kargman was surprised by how forthcoming and approachable Cher was, which provided an unexpected window into Warren’s world.

Reflecting on her experience with Warren, Kargman found inspiration in Warren’s relentless drive. “Diane’s hustle is on another level,” she said. Despite her accomplishments, Warren remains sensitive and uncertain—a duality that Kargman found fascinating. “It shows you can doubt yourself and still be relentless in pursuit of your goals. Those two things are not in conflict, and that’s something I want to take forward.”

As for her next project, Kargman hinted at staying within the worlds of music or sports, two areas she cares deeply about. “My passion is to tell stories that haven’t been told before. A character-driven, verité-style documentary brings me real joy,” she said.

Kargman’s documentary on Diane Warren provides a raw and intimate portrait of an artist who, despite her successes, continues to fight for her place in an industry that doesn’t always recognize her contributions. It’s a story of resilience, vulnerability, and the unending pursuit of purpose—one that is sure to resonate with audiences who understand that success is not a destination but an ongoing journey.

Experience Bess Kargman’s latest documentary, “Diane Warren: Relentless,” an intimate portrait of one of America’s most prolific and successful songwriters. The film dives deep into Warren’s journey from an awkward, bullied kid to a legendary songwriter known for both her exceptional talent and her eccentric personality. Featuring insights from a laundry list of America’s top singers and Warren herself, this music-rich documentary is a compelling exploration of her life, work, and impact on the music industry.

NYC PREMIERE As an awkward, bullied yet rebellious kid, Diane Warren found refuge in music and went on to become one of the most prolific and successful songwriters in America, as legendary for her eccentric personality as for her exceptional talent. A laundry list of America’s top singers, and Diane herself, recount the joys and pains of working with the gifted and prolific hitmaker in this intimate, music-rich portrait. â€“ Karen McMullen

Event Details

Monday, November 18, 2024, at 6:30 PM

• Venue: Village East by Angelika

Tuesday, November 19, 2024, at 4:00 PM

• Venue: IFC Center

The first and second screenings will be followed by a Q&A with director Bess Kargman, producer Peggy Drexler, producer Michele Farinola, and editor Dava Whisenant.

Accessibility

• All in-person screening venues provide sound amplification headphones upon request with venue management.

• IFC Center also provides a T-Coil loop for compatible devices.

Accessibility Alert for Nov 18, 6:30 PM Screening: Due to a recent equipment failure at Village East Cinemas, the room where this film screens is currently not accessible to patrons using wheelchairs. We apologize for the inconvenience. However, the film is available to view at home as part of DOC NYC’s online festival. Please reach out to info@docnyc.net with any questions.

For Tickets and More information visit Doc NYC

Diane Warren: Relentless is in theaters beginning Jan. 10 & streaming on MasterClass starting Jan. 16.

Conducted November 12, 2024, 3:30 P.M. New York, NY

Jonathan Moustakas: Hi, Bess. My name is Jonathan from The Cinema Group. It’s great to meet you today.

Bess Kargman: Great to meet you too.

Jonathan Moustakas: I greatly enjoyed the film. I actually caught it at South by Southwest, and I attended your chat there. I was really excited to get this interview. Since we only have a short amount of time—your past work was focused on sports and dance. I know you fought really hard to get this documentary made. Was there something about Diane that drew you to the project, or did you see a parallel between your personalities once you had the opportunity?

Bess Kargman: Great question. I had heard of her, but I didn’t really know much about her. I knew her songs and her music. A quick Wikipedia search is all it took to be blown away by the list of songs she’s written. I was intrigued to meet her. I had sung “Rhythm of the Night” acapella in college, so I had that connection. Plus, she has this signature style with the scarf. She’s got such a character about her—a badass vibe. I wanted to meet her and see if she would make for an interesting subject. Sometimes people with interesting personas need coaxing—not because they lack depth but because they may not realize the weight of their stories. After meeting her, I knew she was someone I could build a feature-length documentary around. What I didn’t anticipate was the complexity of gaining her trust.

Jonathan Moustakas: Gaining her trust must have been challenging given her work ethic. In the documentary, she was very candid about her past and childhood. Did learning about her upbringing shape how you wanted to structure the documentary?

Bess Kargman: Absolutely. The order in which I do interviews is always very thought-out. I never ask deeply personal questions during the first interviews, especially when I know I’ll have multiple opportunities. When Diane talked about deeply personal and painful experiences, it was only after I had gained her trust in our final interview. She was open about her relationship with her mother, which she sometimes turned into jokes, like her mom telling her she’d be sitting on a corner with a guitar and a cup. But there’s truth behind those comments—pain from not having her mother’s support. I didn’t have any preconceived notions when starting the film, but as time passed, and as the interviews and shadowing continued, certain aspects of her story became central. I am fascinated by what motivates people from childhood into adulthood, and what gives them grit. Diane, for all her accomplishments, underplays how much she has overcome. It’s an incredible story of resilience.

Jonathan Moustakas: You mentioned not planning the film too much, and of course, being a documentary, there’s a lot you can’t predict. But when things like the Oscar loss or the death of her cat happened, how did those events affect your vision for the documentary?

Bess Kargman: We got lucky in terms of timing. Events unfold in all our lives, and the narrative can be shaped no matter the timeframe. But the death of her cat was genuinely significant. It was almost as painful for her as losing her father. Even her friends commented on how much the cat meant to her. At the time, I didn’t know her well, and when I tried to come and film her during that moment, she initially didn’t allow me. But she knew I wanted to capture that part of her journey, so she filmed parts of that day herself, with the help of friends. The next day, after she had processed some of her emotions, she let me in to film her, but only alone—no crew. It was an incredibly intimate moment. As for her Oscar nominations, we followed her through three Academy Award cycles, and each time, she didn’t win. We weren’t filming during her honorary Oscar win, but it’s clear that even now, she’s still chasing that competitive win.

Jonathan Moustakas: The film features so many artists who Diane wrote hits for—some of their biggest songs. Was there one interview that stood out to you or provided new insight into Diane? Like Cher or…

Bess Kargman: I spoke to many people who knew her professionally but weren’t necessarily going to be in the film—studio execs, people who worked with her indirectly. It was all part of the research to understand who Diane really is. Cher’s interview surprised me the most. She was so humble and funny. They say that the top-tier celebrities are often the most down-to-earth, and she was proof of that. She was so chill, self-deprecating, and willing to be spontaneous. During one part of the interview, I had the idea to have her call Diane on the phone, and it turned into this wonderful, unscripted moment between the two of them. Cher wasn’t just a star—I saw her as a genuine friend to Diane.

Jonathan Moustakas: It really came across well. There were so many great artists Diane worked with, and I’m sure there are hundreds more not featured. Is there something specific you learned from Diane during this project that you’re planning to carry forward in your career?

Bess Kargman: Diane’s hustle is on another level. Despite her rough, invincible exterior, she’s incredibly sensitive. It’s refreshing to see someone of her caliber still carry doubt as though she hasn’t “made it” yet. It’s almost a contradiction, but it’s one I admire. It shows you can be ambitious, driven, and relentless, while also vulnerable and unsure. I want to bring that approach into my own life—understanding that ambition and vulnerability are not mutually exclusive.

Jonathan Moustakas: Exactly. I mean, she’s so full of life. And she she says many times, she’s like, Why would I retire? You can’t retire from life. So I I think that’s an inspiring statement and and notion right there. Was there just anything that you’re eyeing for the future, or you’re basking in the kind of afterglow of this project.

Bess Kargman: Absolutely. I’m always working on something new, and I’m currently in talks for a couple of projects. My rule is that the story must be one that hasn’t been told before, with characters that are unique and interesting. I believe every person has a story to tell, but creating character-driven, vérité-style documentaries brings me the most joy. My next project will likely be another music documentary or something in the world of sports—both of which I deeply care about.

Jonathan Moustakas: Very cool. I can’t wait to see what you do next. Thanks for taking the time to chat. It was a pleasure, and I’m looking forward to seeing how the film does.

Bess Kargman: Thank you, Jonathan. I’m so glad you saw the film at South by Southwest. I appreciate the support.

Jonathan Moustakas: Absolutely. I’m really happy I got to catch it. Apreciate your time today. Take care!

Diane Warren: Relentless is in theaters beginning Jan. 10 & streaming on MasterClass starting Jan. 16.